Talk:Mary Baker Eddy

British Israelism

Hello, I’m an employee of The First Church of Christ, Scientist. British Israelism was not an influence on Eddy’s work nor did she teach it. See Peel, Robert (1977), Mary Baker Eddy: The Years of Authority, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, pp. 114-119). Would you please consider correcting this? FirsthandPOV-CCS (talk) 21:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

After reading Peel, Bukan, and Miller (the two sources cited and one proposed), I think the current section should be rewritten, but not entirely removed. There appears to be a difference of opinion amongst historians about Eddy's relationship with British Israelism (even Peel on pg. 118 acknowledges Eddy was "intrigued" by the theory "... the Anglo-Israel issue gradually drifted into the background of Mrs. Eddy's thinking. Although she continued to be intrigued by the theory for several years, she kept it resolultely out of her work and her writing on Christian Science.") and we should explain the different opinions instead of cutting content entirely. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 00:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@FirsthandPOV-CCS, just checking -- is your proposed change to remove the current section entirely, or some other edit? Thanks! Rusalkii (talk) 22:27, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Rusalkii, my primary focus was that British Israelism is included as an influence or teaching. It was neither an influence on Eddy’s work nor did she teach it. FirsthandPOV-CCS (talk) 21:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe the "sources may not be reliable" on Mary Baker Eddy's page is erroneous...

First off, MBE was one of the most influential women to ever live, so of course any source (save clearly BAD sources, which there aren't any) is reliable, but every source I can see is from a known and reliable biography or article. To ensure this problem - that was never a problem in my eyes - is "fixed", I've added a couple more notable sources to the first paragraph. But as I can see it, every paragraph is backed up by one of her very well known biographers over the last 100 years. I just really don't understand the person who flagged this page in the first place - if you are here, I'd love to hear your perspective. If I don't hear any opposing arguments I'm obliged to remove it at some point in the near future. Gregorcollins (talk) 22:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe the tag is there because a lot of the sourcing is church (Christian Science) or church-friendly scholars. Peel, Bates, and Dittemore were all members of the church she founded. Gill's biography has also been criticized. See here. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 23:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply - Peel was a notable adherent, but Bates and Dittemore were notably VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED to Christian Science and Mary Baker Eddy - they were ruthless. So the exact opposite (you would only know this if you did some extra research which I can understand you likely wouldn't want to do). Also, Gill is a notable NON-christian scientist, her book has actually been lauded as a fair criticism of the religion. Clearly I know more than the person who put the flag up - perhaps a more appropriate flag, though it would still be incorrect, is that it appears to only have sources that "agree" with the religion. Anyway I supposed I'll clean it up more and see where we are then. Greg (talk) (contribs) 22:24, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

apologies, i misspoke, sorry, dunno where my head is - you're correct Dittemore and Bates were adherents (but did say critical things about the religion, Dittemore had to write an apology letter to the board of directors before he died), but the vehement opposers were Milmine and Willa Cather and they are cited multiple times on Eddy's page, thereby showing "both sides." But the truth is we don't really know what the flag put up really meant, it's not clear. So we're left to be at the mercy of it I guess. Again, apologies for misspeaking, have a good day. Greg (talk) (contribs) 22:31, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'm officially removing the May 2023 "reliable sources" flag on MBE's page, here's why...

Per the above convo (where I completely misspoke on the first reply, apologies) - after adding a couple new sources to the first paragraph and perusing the page to see that not only PRO-Christian Science biographers like Peel and Dittemore are cited, but also cited (multiple times) are noted ANTI-Christian Science biographers like Milmine and Cather, who made it their life's work to discredit Eddy and her Science. I'm actually impressed Milmine and Cather appear so frequently. And Gill, who is cited many times, is a noted NON-Christian Scientist who wrote a book that was considered very fair. So as far as i can see it's a very "both sided" piece. We are left to conjecture what the original "flagger" had in mind when they wrote "lacks reliable sources," perhaps they think all the inline citations of books make it "unreliable" - but when writing about an obscure subject like Christian Science, sometimes books are the ONLY sources we have to really verify things, as no major media source is going to cover something like Christian Science. Anyway, I felt the need to write this lengthy note. If you disagree with my points, please let me know and if you think it still needs a flag, please be as specific as possible with the flag. Whoever created this article and has added to it has done a really good job with citations. Greg (talk) (contribs) 22:44, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@User:Gregorcollins, I won't object to removing the tag, but would like to note the tag was added shortly after the release of YouTube video by youtuber Knowing Better that I linked when I responded above. His section on "interrogating sources" critiqued an earlier version of this article for primary source citations to Eddy and heavy use of Pro-Christian Science biographers. The primary source reliance was substantially cut down after the tag was added and it looks like the citations to Milmine and Cather nearly doubled. I'd also note that Knowing Better's video specifically criticized Gill's biography as a bad source with a good reputation.

From KB on Gill: Another [review on the back of Gill's book] reads "Gill's biography reflects her unprecedented access to the Mother Church archive and fully renders the worldly magnitude of Eddy's achievements." The Christian Science Church doesn't just give archival access to anyone. I know from other books that if they do, they usually have some say over what the final product will be and if they don't like what you have to say, they'll enforce their copyright to prevent your book from ever coming out. And indeed on the inside of the title page there is a thank you to the church and its publishing arm for allowing her to use their copyrighted works." He continues in the section to then go through a few different errors in Gill's work, including Gill just omitting lines from Eddy's letters that don't support her conclusion when she cites them. That being said, I don't think it's necessary to remove Gill entirely from the article.

TLDR: I generally think the article has improved since the tag was added last year and would be comfortable removing it. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 00:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this very thoughtful response - and I'm glad I know about that Knowing Better video, and that it's improved since then. I haven't listened to it enough to know if this guy has any vendetta for or against Eddy, but if he's neutral, cool. I'd still call Gill a neutral source. Peel is biased towards Eddy (but not in a bold or heavy-handed way), but Milmine is REALLY biased against it (yet in the wiki article they are mostly tame assertions), so those cancel out, but Gill, being a non-Christian Scientist, even though the CS publishing society likely approved it, I've read the book and it's harsh at times and sympathetic at others. Sometimes she agrees with people like Milmine (or at least deems her credible on some points), and sometime she passionately disputes her claims. I don't think the society TOLD Gill what to write, I think they were just relieved that someone with no skin in the game other than to write a good biography wrote a book that was fair and balanced. Anyway, thanks again Greg (talk) (contribs) 01:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)